[DRAFT] SIP 0009 - Evolution Sale

Fantastic suggestion but just to clarify are you suggesting a straight swap of 17.5k sats for 1 sov as opposed to a dutch auction?

I am proposing a straight swap.

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A proposed straight swap of 17.5k sats in my opinion is fair and also lends room for project growth on the open market.

While we are on this example I think it is absolutely paramount before Evolution to solve the difficulties of acquiring rbtc. Ideally the protocol should have a reserve that people could buy limited amounts of, enough to fuel their transactions. So like a 0.01 or 0.05 or 0.0025btc limit with then a 7-day cooldown or something, so people could top up directly on the platform.

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I dont mean to lead us off topic but wanted to mention it.

@AlykzAlex yes, we are working to bring back an improved FastBTC top-up deposit system.

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So let’s do some maths. Let’s say the price of BTC goes to $70k. At 17.5k sats that gives SOV a price of $12.5 USD. Many people still price in USD, because they are not Sovryn yet :wink:

At $12.5 USD we would have a starting market cap (circulating supply) of probably $40-50m. So not crazy town, but higher that most DeFi projects.

To stay at the same price, we would need to absorb about 100 BTC of buying demand in the month that followed - or about half of what we raised in origin - so doable. We would need to do that pretty much every month (not considering the rising price of BTC.

Looking at how we would compare to other projects - we would still leave space for growth. But of course, we would be priced more aggressively than I initially proposed.

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This debate is so cool. I don’t know if public sale pricing has ever been publicly debated like this before…

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I’d not focus too much on genesis/origin/evolution comparison.

As they are not really comparable (beside straight pricing in sats)

Genesis was a rather wild ride (or block fight).
But key point is, genesis was rather closed.
Only selected participants had a chance even.
Also their risk is very asymmetric against origin, because of the 10mo vesting period.

Origin was basically open to everyone (but still limited by total allocation and 0.1 max amount).
Course mostly early users knew, but lots of people came into by yt, Twitter etc…

A slight increase in sats imo would reward and comfort those (and all other) early holders.

A too steep increase (as already highlighted) may give instant comfort to all current SOV holders, but possibly increases downside later on.

I’m mostly in favour of market shall decide price.
Rn this market only exists in too limited way to be usable for judgment. Like supply/demand is rather restricted.

I’d love to see a “free market” (exchanges) picture of steadily increasing appreciation. (Guess we all do). But we still have no idea on were demand lights up and supply motivation kicks in. By the same reason I’m on the side grateful of having had a few chances to get SOV this early, on the other side my gut feeling shouts: No more sales rounds… get this beast out into free nature.

That said, long story short;
if I’m asked: 15-20k sats.

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This is really important and we should NOT be forgetting it. Genesis was totally different terms from Origin.

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The demand of 100 btc per month you mention is imo easily achievable. I think people are underestimating the number and full impact of hardcore btc lovers who were unable to participate in defi due to refusing to give up their keys and/or having to use centralized exchanges in the process. I’m of the opinion that these users will flock to Sovryn not only due to the financial interest they can harvest, but also because it lines up with their ideology. Also, I assume marketing will pick up even more leading to public sale and after to spread awareness about the project, which will likely result in more users and again more activity via the btc demand.

As per the current discussion, I know that with Sovryn our ideas are actively listened to and so am enjoying this myself, too.

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I only mention Genesis a lot because some users were experiencing errors with generating btc deposits or were confused overall and were told ‘‘don’t worry, there will be another presale soon’’. You can only imagine the utter disappointment, if there is someone who was within our community since the beginning, for some reason did not get tokens in Genesis and then found out the only way to buy SOV is with a hefty 4x price increase. Again, still worth it because of the project’s ambitions, but…It is sad and we have seen users like this in chat - that is why I want us to keep the comparison between Genesis and Origin in mind.

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Suppose btc doesnt rise to $70k but enters a midterm correction to like -40% or -50% (small in comparison to the -80% declines of the 2017 bullrun, before the peak even), we should consider in this discussion which implications that would have.

Given the tendency for altcoins to see a drop in btc value during btc corrections, what would that mean for us in this case?

I am not exactly sure about the answer to that question myself… but I think it is important to consider that scenario as well, so we have positioned the Evolution price as optimally for btc/usd price development both up and down.

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That’s true.

I somehow also expected a lower handle.
Or say expected dutch auction to settle down a bit.

About Sovryn value to sovryn BTC “not your key…” users:
Yes fully agree.

But this/the value has to be established and decided by market. Not by “our” price points.

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I think part of the pricing problem between Genesis and Origin was the message. Instead of “we didn’t know and we priced too low” I think of it as two completely separate deals. In Genesis the lockup period is 10 months, in origin the lockup period is much, much shorter. That alone is reason to have a vast price difference. The other side is that before a sale was made and the price wasn’t known it was a much bigger risk until you knew the demand. in origin we knew the demand would be higher so that’s the price could go up and the terms were much more favorable as there was not the long lockup period. If there is another sale I would say 13k or so sats since a little later and less risk, and no lockup, this higher price.

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Yeah I agree this is pretty cool and from my knowledge an absolute 1st!

My view as a SOVRYN supporter and DEFI lover is that you shouldn’t anger a massive % of your earlier supporters by allowing the crowd to buy at 12k sats, the origin sale believed in the project earlier and given that the 1st sale was 2500k sats the only fair thing to do would be for the crowd to pay between 30k-40k sats! This helps bolster the price and create support levels on the way down ( should that happen) i read that you underestimated the demand of SOVRYN and thats why the 1st sale got a price of 2.5k sats, well the demand is now here and the origin sale shouldn’t be penalised for showing belief in the project they should be rewarded for showing SOVRYN the love.

For the record I love what your going to achieve and have no interest in dumping but I’d like my faith in the project to be shown the respect is deserves don’t anger a massive % of your supporters by allowing anything under 30k sats

Peace and love to all

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I feel that there is a high percentage of short investors, who are only looking at the price. They want a big, easy and quick profit.
If you ask them they will easily tell you a price range to go to. Many of them are thinking of selling before buying.

On the other hand, there are other medium and long-term investors. They don’t care about the price, because they enjoy the journey as much as the goal. If you ask them, they may not be able to determine the price. Many of them are not even thinking of selling.

I wish Sovryn could show its value before the evolution comes out. I am convinced that if Sovryn shows its value, the price will follow.

In this case, SOV’s value is built from within and is discovered like the scent of a flower. I am sorry that I cannot suggest a specific price, but I am grateful for the daily effort of the developers to build a more beautiful flower every day, which allows us to understand Sovryn’s potential and to project its real value.

As they say, perceived strength is attributed strength.

However, in practice the captain has to know who is on his ship (sailors, passengers, stowaways…). Therefore I suggest doing price surveys next week among the team, genesis buyers and origin buyers. Also, in that survey you can ask how many people are in Sovryn for the speculative investment, and how many get butterflies in their stomachs when they hear about Sovryn.

Sorry, a beer makes me talk nonsense

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I think that if next sale price would be 50-100% higher, would be accepted by people. There is demand for SOV. Alex proposed 7,5 k SAT increase - actually it might be perfect. Not too much, not too little. Very clear situation. But only if we consder SOV in pair with BTC.

It would be good to decide if we want SOV to be priced in BTC or in USD. We have to keep in mind, that most people use USD in price evaluation. We could try to make some kind of a BTC/USD converter to average the price… we can never be 100% sure how BTC will behave… we cannot forget, that in mid-term BTC can drop. That would affect us all.

Ok, bold statement, but guess in line with many others:

For me, at a certain point reassessment of investment will be done.

If market gives,
then I will take out initial investment + a premium for my money having to take that risk.
The rest is not decided yet (if I will keep forever or never or anything in between).

But that’s the game.
Else it should have been hosted as charity event.

The absolutely awesome thing is, that it’s not a pure financial decision to stay (with) Sovryn, but a very enjoyable journey and a lot of cool peeps along the way. It not just some token or coin.

Don’t know why I’m writing this here now… it just somehow made sense in context of this discussion.

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I enjoy reading the thoughtful responses to this, but I personally think we’re overthinking it. None of the suggestions on price in either direction are outlandish enough to have a major impact on anybody, IMHO. Also, none of us should expect that the self-ascribed artificial pricing being conjured up here before an active two-sided market exists, whether it’s called a pre-sale or a public sale, means very much or creates any sort of meaningful floor in actuality. To that end, even making it the same price as the Origin sale wouldn’t bother me as a participant of Origin because you could have easily just made Origin a bigger offering instead. The fact that we’re doing it only a few weeks later, using ETH, and calling the sale a new name doesn’t substantially change the context or the risk profile.

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